On April 8, Noam Chomsky was in a dialogue with Bill Fletcher, Jr. live on The Real News. Fletcher is a syndicated columnist, a regular media commentator and the former president of the TransAfrica Forum. The discussion was called “A Left Response to the Russian Invasion of Ukraine.” Though Chomsky denounced the Russian invasion of Ukraine, calling it a crime of aggression, it wouldn’t be far wrong to say Chomsky placed all of the blame for Russia’s attack on the U.S. government. The U.S., he said, crossed obvious “red lines” when it was clear that Russia would react violently.
The title of the event should have been “Chomsky Calls for Realpolitik for the 21st century.” All the authorities he quoted in support of his arguments were strategists, diplomats, and ambassadors, like George Kennan, Jack Matlock, Chas Freeman, CIA directors and the like. These are “realists,” political theorists in a tradition going back all the way to Machiavelli that rejected talking about how states should act and instead talked about how they did act and how a “prince” or statesman had to be realistic and not try to go against the flow. Realists want nations to respect great powers’ “spheres of influence,” “national interests,” the balance of power, etc. and rail against human rights, democracy, equality or other moral considerations as a major concern for foreign policy.
Now, what has any of that have to do with us on the Left? Where are the matters dear to us like democracy, equality, class and national self-determination? In fact, not a single leftist was mentioned by Chomsky in his hour-long interview.
Fletcher mentions that in his final speech before the invasion, Putin didn’t emphasize the supposed threat of NATO but claimed that Ukraine had no legitimate reason to exist. Chomsky agrees (13:55 ) that Putin has said those things, but then immediately minimizes them and brings up a Putin quote that “anyone who wants to reestablish the Soviet Union with its former borders is out of its mind.” He says Russia is really not that strong with an economy the size of Italy. Then he makes an astounding comment. At 15:40 he says, “It’s not about to conquer anybody, inconceivable.” That’s a pretty bizarre statement, seeing that Russia was invading Ukraine right as he spoke. Did he mean Russia is not going to conquer all of the old Soviet Union’s empire? Well, he sure didn’t say it.
In the next sentence, Chomsky says, “Ukraine is indeed a special case as it’s been for 30 years.” He then goes on to say there were other statements about Russia’s war goals made by Russia’s foreign minister that explained the main desire of Russia was for neutralization and demilitarization of Ukraine, and security for the Donbas region. So Chomsky wants us to think that Lavrov and other Putin flunkies are controlling what Russia really wants, not the gent who speaks to his underlings from one side of that very long table.
Chomsky detailed the assurances made to Gorbachev and others that if the Soviet Union (in 1990) allowed Germany to reunite and join NATO then NATO would not advance “one inch” further eastward. These verbal promises were made though there was nothing as solid as a treaty defining this. On the other hand Chomsky did not mention the written and signed 1994 Budapest Memorandum which guaranteed in writing that Russia and the US and Britain would respect Ukraine’s then existing 40-year-old borders. When Fletcher brings it up (19:21) and the general question of security, Chomsky ducks the question and starts talking about neutrality which he says has worked well for Mexico, Austria and Finland.
Fletcher brings up the Budapest Memorandum again (21:30) and asks how Ukrainians could expect Russia to abide by a treaty since in 2014 Russia violated the Memorandum, seized Crimea, and supported the Donbas separatists.
Chomsky answers, “Certainly Ukraine could not assume that Russia would abide by treaty” and then goes off on the fact that the U.S. doesn’t abide by treaties and gives example after example. Then he seemingly goes back to Fletcher’s question and says the issue is “Are the circumstances such that the great powers will live up to their commitments?” and then he goes on a riff of what would the situation have been now if the U.S. had listened to the warnings of statesman like Kennan. Other than saying something vague about “circumstances,” he doesn’t explain how Ukraine was supposed to deal with a Russian government that ignored its own written pledge not to invade.
Chomsky elaborates that statesman warned that Russia would accept NATO expansion and humiliations, but only up to a point. Its red lines were in Georgia and Ukraine (25:45) which are “deep within the Russian geo-strategic heartland as recognized on all sides.” What kind of a Leftist talks like that? What Leftist thinks Mexico or Cuba is part of the U.S. “heartland” just because it borders or is near to the U.S.?
At 27:47 Chomsky looks back at the “current situation.” He says U.S. policy now is to fight to the “last Ukrainian” and block prospects for peace, giving Putin no alternatives except “suicide” or a path to nuclear war. Not entertained is the idea that Ukrainians want to fight to live in their own country after seeing what it was like to live under Russian domination. No, it’s the U.S. calling the shots.
Fletcher asks Chomsky why Putin would be worried about NATO expansion into Ukraine since he knew Germany and France were opposed to the idea and would veto it. Chomsky replies that the U.S. has overwhelming power and countries are terrified of this “violent rogue state” and goes on to talking about the U.S. war against Cuba. In short, he doesn’t answer Fletcher.
One thing that stuck in my craw was that Chomsky said several times, “Crimea is off the table.” Who is he to say that? It was part of Ukraine for 70 years. It was understood in writing in the Budapest Memorandum that it was part of Ukraine. So currently it’s made up of overwhelmingly Russian speakers. One reason for that is a brutal ethnic cleansing during World War II. Stalin deported a quarter of a million people from Crimea, mostly Tatars. Tens of thousands died. Chomsky makes much of the fact the Crimea is home to a warm water port. So what? Russia has plenty of ports. See this list. What if it was landlocked? There are 44 land-locked countries in the world. They take goods by truck and rail to the seaports of other nations. Leftists don’t have a problem with that, only “strategic” thinkers. The Left universally condemns the U.S. for forcing Cubans to allow it to maintain a military base on Guantanamo. So why should Russia have the eternal right to have one on the Crimean peninsula?
At 40:38 Fletcher asks about Putin’s warfare in Chechnya and Syria and Fletcher says he sees “a line that goes from Chechnya to Ukraine” for which the U.S. has had little or no role.
Chomsky really goes off the rails here when he talks about Syria. It’s worth quoting his whole statement. At 41:39 he starts:
“Syria, it was criminal and murderous and destructive, but if we want to know the reasons they were not obscure. The United States, France, Germany were supporting opposition forces which by 2013, 2014 were mostly jihadi forces which were fighting against the recognized government of Syria, the government that has a seat in the United Nations and is internationally recognized. They were trying to overthrow it, that’s a Russian ally. The CIA was providing advanced weapons to the opposition forces, advanced anti-tank weapons, which did stop the Assad armies. Quite predictably. It didn’t take a genius to predict it . I predicted it. Others did. The Russians reacted. Russia came into the war, really for the first time, to attack the CIA’s anti-tank weapons. Then they went on to support Assad’s brutal, vicious effort to reconquer Syria, horrible atrocities, and so on. Technically it’s not criminal, certainly not illegal, but it’s criminal in the moral sense not in the legal sense. That’s what happened in Syria.”
Fletcher interrupts and says, “One of the things you’re discounting is that there was an uprising in Syria.”
“There was an uprising, it was part of the Arab Spring, a democratic reformist uprising, and Assad crushed it with extreme violence. That led on to the civil war and gradually the jihadi forces pretty much took over. You can debate the details, but by 2013, 2014 there was a largely jihadi based opposition, which the U.S. was supporting attempting to overthrow the government brutal murderous government responsible for the overwhelming most of the crimes, but happened to be the international recognized government, which was a Russian ally and when it got to the point where the CIA was providing advanced weapons, not surprisingly, the Russians moved in to destroy them. Then it went on to the destruction of the rest of Syria. Is it pretty? No, it’s very ugly. Nobody believes the Russians are saints, but they’re an imperial power, minor in comparison to the United States, as an economy they’re on par with Italy and Spain, advanced weapons. They are…we don’t have to recall Russia was invaded and virtually destroyed twice in the 20th century by Germany alone …Now the idea of an advanced, hostile military alliance run by the world’s most powerful and aggressive state which is providing and enhancing strategic and defense cooperation with Ukraine and with a robust and exercised program in keeping with Ukraine’s status as an enhanced NATO opportunities partner….a serious threat to Russia.”
Fletcher: “Is it really a threat to Russia? We’re not talking about 1941…Russia has the most nuclear weapons of any country on the planet. Who is concerned about Ukrainian security?”
I’ll stop quoting at 46:50 to talk about Syria.
Chomsky’s factual account is mostly false. The U.S. was not fighting to overthrow the Assad government! It had sent small arms to Syrian opposition groups and some anti-tank weapons, but nothing that could defend them against the Assad air force (like the MANPADS they desperately requested). It specifically barred allies like Saudi Arabia or Qatar from supplying them either. By 2013 ISIS had spread over large parts of Syria and Iraq and that became the U.S. absolute #1 priority. From then on, the U.S. sent aid to military units only if they would promise to use them exclusively to fight ISIS. Despite all the handicaps, Syrian armed groups had nearly defeated Assad in 2015. Russian air force planes attacked them to save Assad not to fight the U.S. whose support for “rebels” opposing Assad had ended years before. In fact the U.S. and Russia were cooperating in the fight against ISIS.
Now for Chomsky’s political arguments. He repeats twice and at length the fact that Assad was the “internationally recognized” head of government in Syria and so had a right to get military aid from his ally Russia. Chomsky’s love for the Hobbesian sanctity of sovereignty is bewildering. As early as the 17th century, the Dutch jurist Hugo Grotius argued that the rights of the sovereign should be limited by the principles of humanity. International law and powers given to the United Nations have more and more constrained the power of sovereignty. Assad’s sieges of whole cities defied UN Security Council resolutions for instance Security Council Resolution 2139 which demanded an end to his barrel bombs, his hindering of UN food convoys to areas under siege, and the release of women and children in his prisons. Likewise Russian activity in Syria was an international crime, a war crime, not as Chomsky claims merely in a “moral sense”.
Chomsky talks about Russia “reacting” as if it was a law of nature, as if he was describing what happens when a person touches a live wire. There was no necessary reason for Russia to “react” and join in the mass murder of Syrians. Putin could have happily exercised his tyrannical controls over Russians no matter what happened in Syria.
Bringing up the fact that Russia was twice invaded by Germany is really beneath Chomsky. What the Kaiser and Hitler did gives Putin the right to do anything he wants for the sake of Russian security? Where have we heard that argument before? Right, that’s exactly what Israel says. Jews were killed in a Holocaust so we, Israel, can do anything we want because it’s all for our security.
Let’s leave Syria. At 47:40 Fletcher again asks about Ukrainian security and Chomsky again ducks talking about U.S. misdeeds and crimes in Afghanistan. Later he says basically if Ukraine had been neutral like Austria or Finland there would have been no security worries.
Then he goes on to justify what Russia did in 2014, repeating the now familiar charge that there was a coup “with direct U.S. involvement.” Essentially this man of the Left claims that Ukrainians had no right to overthrow a government that banned protest and shot into crowds, and whose president was notoriously corrupt. Then he gave a justification for Russian seizure of Ukrainian territory, “Russia could have just stood by and clapped as we could have stood by and clapped if a pro-Chinese government was established with Mexico calling for a military alliance with China.”
Chomsky repeats that Russia had its only warm water port including naval bases in Crimea. “They were being immediately threatened [my emphasis] by the pro-US government that took power with direct U.S. involvement.” This is false. What “direct threat” was there to its warm water port? Had Ukraine banned Russian trade through Sevastopol? Had it demanded Russian troops leave the Crimean Peninsula? The answer is “no” in both cases.
Fletcher finally asks, “Many people on the US Left think there’s nothing we can do about Putin. What should we do?”
Chomsky answers that we should get the US to abandon its policy of fighting to the last Ukrainian and leaving Putin with no exit, “his back up against the wall” and accept that Ukraine will have a status like Mexico, Austria and Finland. Again he says Crimea is “off the table.” Again, it’s the U.S. that’s being unreasonable.
Finally consider what isn’t in Chomsky’s remarks. For one, the words “solidarity with Ukraine” are absent. He never suggests we in the Left ask Ukrainians what they want, whether they think they’re American pawns or whether want to fight on to defend their country. Chomsky, a self-described anarchist, does not mention what any Ukrainian anarchist or socialist is thinking, and he never talks about weapons, whether Ukraine has any right to get weapons to defend itself.
Noam Chomsky’s exercise in realpolitik is depressing. He should know that the Left should not be involved defending notions of spheres of influence or geopolitics.
1. You can criticize Chomsky’s rhetoric all you want, but on substantive matters, when it comes to actual policy, he does support the Ukrainian right to self defence and sanctions against Russia, as he makes very clear in his interview with Jeremy Scahill (https://theintercept.com/2022/04/14/russia-ukraine-noam-chomsky-jeremy-scahill/)
2. In terms of Crimea being off the table, that is also the view of many Ukrainian negotiators who have been discussing freezing the issue for 10-15 years. So I don’t see Chomsky saying something outlandish. This journal itself has come out in opposition to a No-Fly Zone, which is an explicit call of the Ukrainians. Clearly, this journal also recognizes that many legitimate demands of Ukrainians have to be understood in the context of the real world. Why the fury when Chomsky applies the same principle in another context?
3. With regards to Syria, what this article says is incorrect. Shane Bauer, one of the most respected journalists on Syria and strongly anti-Assad, is quite clear in his Mother Jones report that there was an anti-Assad current in the Obama administration, that led to the one of the most expensive CIA operations, Timber Sycamore. It is certainly true as Chomsky has consistently stated elsewhere that Assad committed the vast majority of the atrocities, but it does leave open the question of whether the CIA program was escalatory. There can be legitimate disagreements about that, but there are good reasons to believe that it was, given the subsequent Russian escalation. I don’t buy the claim this author makes about MANPADs, which others on this journal have often asserted; maybe CIA providing more arms to the rebels might well have led to an earlier Russian intervention. I have never seen anyone argue that out (and the burden of proof is on the folks making that argument; you need to show that offering MANPADs would not have had an escalatory effect.)
Back to Ukraine, the US role in the conflict post-invasion has been: (a) military support, (b) sanctions, (c) a lot of anti-Putin rhetoric about war crimes, genocide and regime change, (d) an official statement that still offers Ukraine NATO membership, a fact that is unmentioned both here and in the mainstream.
Let’s examine the notion of solidarity implicit in this article, and in general in this journal. In the context of Ukraine, it consists of supporting (a) and (b) with barely a mention of (c) and (d), without even noting that it actively impedes negotiations, and without ever discussing how the war will actually end, what the US goals are or what US policy should be. All accompanied with a lot of posturing about solidarity with Ukrainians. Sounds pretty hollow to me.
Perhaps a thought experiment is useful in this context. Suppose we were Soviet citizens in the context of the Cuban missile crisis, who actually knew that the Soviet Union was preparing to arm Cuba with nuclear tipped missiles. Our *primary* responsibility would have been to stop it, not offer platitudes about solidarity with Cubans by focusing on the American empire. The same holds now, with roles reversed. Our primary responsibility is to get our government to act in a way that ends the war.
I’d like to tell this author what statistics undergrads are often told: show your solidarity, don’t tell me about it.
It’s not credible that Russia would ever fear Ukraine militarily. Even a NATO aligned Ukraine. Balderdash.
Maybe what US and NATO did in the runup to the invasion was (somewhat) provocative or unwise, but that still can’t justify Putin’s aggression.
What neither side says is that Ukraine had wanted to be part of the Western ECONOMIC alliance. As part of the EU, they would probably quickly surpass Russia’s GDP, tempting separatist groups inside Russia to seek their exit too. Putin may actually feel his nation is in a weak position, not a strong one.
I think economic imperialism is the unspoken sordid motive of this newest Great Game. The so-called ‘great powers’ need to cut it out. It’s too dangerous to have war over petty spheres of influence in a 19th century manner waged with 21st century weapons. Atomic, bacterial, and chemical weapons ensure risks exceed any possible rational gains.
Neutrality is the only way left for Ukraine (preferably for Byelorussia, Georgia, Azerbaijan too). Today’s great powers ignore the risks to world peace and the urgent need to cooperate on climate change and other global problems.
Good one, Stanley.
responding to Raghav Kaushik
1. I read over the Scahill interview. Chomsky does say Ukraine has a right to self-defense, but he doesn’t say anything like Stephen Shalom did in his fine New Politics piece “Why the Left Must Support Arms for Ukraine!”. Instead Chomsky says the best thing to do is “move toward a negotiated settlement”. And what does he recommend get negotiated? Since Russia has been invading Ukraine since 2014 how about a proposal that there be zone inside Russia 400 miles from the Ukrainian border from which Russia would not be allowed to bring in weapons? How about thousands of UN soldiers kept in that zone for some years as a matter of enforcement? No, Chomsky only makes recommendations that the victim make concessions.
2. Ukrainians may feel the need to freeze the issue for some years, but for Chomsky to just declare the issue is “off the table” is rather arrogant.
3. On Syria you say a CIA program was “escalatory”. I don’t agree. Assad escalted constantly to use every weapon in his arsenal against a civilian population. The U.S. did send some arms to Syrian groups in the years before it turned its entire attention to ISIS, but nothing that would defend the people against air attacks and surely nothing that would allow popular forces to defeat the Syrian army.
4. Going back to Ukraine, Putin has decided to take all the Donbas in the east and most of the south of Ukraine to connect up the Crimea to his Donbas wasteland. How is Ukraine supposed to negotiate about that unless its armed forces cause major Russian casualties?
So using your final analogy our main responsibility is to get the U.S. not to behave recklessly? Sure we should do that, but I think our main responsibility is help get supplies of all kinds to victims in Ukraine and Syria. (and Yemen and many areas savaged by U.S. imperialism)
BTW we will be discussing Ukraine and Syria in a program on Thurs. 4/28/22 on zoom at 7 Eastern. See details at pepeace.org
Re: (1), true Chomsky doesn’t say what Shalom says in his piece, but so what? He supports Shalom’s position. You are the one seriously misrepresenting Chomsky by failing to mention his substantive positions.
Re: (2), it is ridiculous to assert that Chomsky is taking the position that Ukrainian negotiators (and incidentally Zelensky himself) is taking. Your assertion that he is offering compromises on behalf of Ukrainians is absurd. You can describe it or arrogant or whatever. That’s your personal position that I have no interest in.
Re: (3), the facts do not agree with you. Have you read Shane Bauer’s piece? He quotes Philip Gordon who was the White House coordinator for the Middle East responding to the Russian escalation: “It was the logical continuation of what we had already seen, which is that the more that we intervene, the more they intervene.” Of course Assad escalated and of course Putin escalated. The point is that that was the *anticipated* consequence of supplying anti-tank weapons. What is your idea of solidarity with Syrians exactly? Arm the rebels no matter what the consequences? Supplying anti-aircraft weapons to the rebels after Iran/Russia entered the war would have been a massive escalation. Even Gilbert Achcar who rightly critiques Obama’s policy only brings up the issue of anti-aircraft weapons in the early days of the uprising, well before Iran got involved. Unlike you, he is a thoughtful commentator. You might want to read the arguments you are purportedly using a bit more carefully.
Re: (4), you are just repeating platitudes. Keep at it.
Your ideas of solidarity are profoundly hollow.
I saw that Chomsky was trending on Twitter and I feared the worst. Actually what was trending was Chomsky’s praise for Donald Trump!
Fox contributor Glenn Greenwald was bragging Chomsky had called Trump a “statesman” and had said that there was “one Western statesman of stature” who is pushing for a diplomatic solution to the war in Ukraine rather than looking for ways to fuel and prolong it. His name is Donald J. Trump. [ https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1520751923355398144 ]
The replies to Greenwald pointed to the full interview with Chomsky on April 27. It’s at https://youtu.be/6YeRX6ZYXH0. Greenwald did not distort what Chomsky said.
What wise policy is Trump advocating that so impressed Chomsky?
Well, on April 18 Trump said, “It doesn’t make sense that Russia and Ukraine aren’t sitting down and working out some kind of an agreement.” That’s about it. So what’s so wonderful about that sentence? Trump pretends he can make fantastic deals to solve any problem. (Source: Newsweek https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/donald%20trump%20says%20russia,%20ukraine%20should%20work%20out%20'some%20kind%20of%20agreement'/ar-AAWllp8?ocid=uxbndlbing)
Sure he can sell weapons, but what kind of “deal” did Trump make to settle Korea or end the conflict [apartheid] between Israelis and Palestinians.
But read up on what else Trump has said about Ukraine. In March made two statements the very opposite of “negotiations”. Just three weeks earlier on March 22 it was widely reported that on Fox Business Trump advised Biden that if Putin uses the word “nuclear”, then “You should say, ‘Look, if you mention that word one more time, we’re going to send them [nuclear armed submarines] over and we’ll be coasting back and forth, up and down your coast. ”
And weeks before that, on March 6 he told Republican donors in New Orleans that the “United States should label its F-22 planes with the Chinese flag and “bomb the s–t out of Russia.” [Source: Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/03/06/trump-focuses-foreign-policy-speech-gops-top-donors/ ]
Donald Trump is a statesman?
Anyway, Noam Chomsky, why always think the magic solution is “negotiations” and “diplomacy”, in this case figuring a way to soothe Putin’s supposedly justified security fears? Why don’t you read “What Should Russia do with Ukraine” which was published in early April by the Russian state-owned news agency RIA Novosti (Russian: РИА Новости) It was written by one of their writers, Timofey Sergeytsev. [Source: https://medium.com/@kravchenko_mm/what-should-russia-do-with-ukraine-translation-of-a-propaganda-article-by-a-russian-journalist-a3e92e3cb64%5D an absolutely horrifying document explaining that Ukraine was entirely Nazi, that it was a worse danger than Hitler and that the majority of its people had to be killed or taken for reeducation, and that “de-Nazification” had to go on for a generation. Putin’s government is not worrying about security. It’s obsessed with the existence of Ukraine. It’s the existence of Ukraine which it defines as Nazism.
The RIA Novosti article was never withdrawn or criticized by anyone in the Russian government.
conventional American colonialism. That the US was in Ukraine? In 2004, the first coup d’état in Ukraine took place, when, under pressure from the United States, a third round of state elections was announced and the pro-Western puppet Yushchenko was placed in the presidential chair. What a wonderful cycle was played out with his poisoning! one small detail, the one who made this circus forgot to ask the doctors about the lethal dose of poison and sent to Switzerland a test tube with poison 50 times the lethal dose.
As for the Budapest Memorandum, no country has ratified it. The United States was the first to refuse to do this, then Britain, then Ukraine, and the last was Russia. Thus, the Budapest memorandum is not worth the paper on which it is written. On the other hand, the US was able to disarm Ukraine and it ceased to be a military force. And most importantly, Ukraine has ceased to be a threat to the supply of nuclear weapons to everyone, from Israel to the Eastern Tigers from Sri Lanka
Why did Russia seize Crimea? Because she had the right. Crimea was not part of Ukraine. It was autonomy with the right of self-determination. What the Russians did during the Msut in Kyiv.
No international court can accuse Russia of annexing Crimea. While any international court can easily prove that in 1993 Ukraine annexed part of the territory of Russia. The city of Sevastopol was never part of the Crimea and belonged to Moscow. However, in 1993 Ukraine annexed this region.
And most importantly, there is not a single mention of the Minsk agreements. there is not a single mention that from February 18 to February 22, 2022, the armed forces of Ukraine launched more than 5,000 artillery strikes on the territory of the LDNR. More than 100 civilians were killed, many houses were destroyed along the line of contact and in Donetsk.
On February 25, President Lukashenko revealed that on February 23, Putin called Zelensky and Lukashenko, so that Lukashenko would contact Zelensky, but Zelensky was silent.
Thus, the whole military operation of Russia is a repetition of 2008, when Russia forced Georgia to peace.
However, everything can go according to the scenario of Georgia until April 1, 2022, when Russia retreated from Kyiv, Ukrainian troops entered the city of Bucha and carried out a real massacre among the local population, which supported Russia. This showed that from now on Russia cannot leave the territory. Because the Ukrainian army is happy to destroy the pro-Russian civilian population.